# 428 - Unraveling Jealousy in Five Steps With Dr. Joli Hamilton  URL:: https://share.snipd.com/episode/f646b3d3-b254-4787-a67f-d09ae09dd2fd Author:: Multiamory: Rethinking Modern Relationships ## AI-Generated Summary None ## Highlights > The Process of Individuation and Non Monogamy > Summary: > The process of individuation is ongoing and there is no final destination to reach. > It is a continuous journey of self-discovery, where one explores what is real and true for them, based on what their nervous system can handle accepting at that moment. Non-monogamy is viewed as a psychological process intertwined with individuation, allowing individuals to explore different aspects of themselves through interactions with various people, gaining insights into self-perception and personal growth. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > And in fact, there's a really clear piece of the individuation process that I think helps us remember that there is no such thing as individuated. You don't get there. You don't arrive. You don't finish anymore than you would get get enlightened and then be done. Like that that's just not a thing us humans are really we're not really there for we're in a process. And so for me, that's a really exciting thing because I don't have to figure it out so much as feel into what's real for me and what's true for me and what my nervous system can handle me accepting Right now. And then also just what I want to explore with right now. And all of those are part of really taking non monogamy and making a psychological process. And that's how I see it. > Speaker 4 > It's interesting because I was going to ask that question can one ever become like individuated, but you just said no. So that makes sense because I think that's a really sort of unattainable goal. But when I think of non monogamy, often I think of looking at myself through the lens of others and learning about self through, you know, knowing many different people expanding through What they how they view you how you are with them things along those lines. ([Time 0:10:27](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4b4cd34e-2884-4ccc-b37d-3b8940887cb6)) > Relational Individuation and Integrating Multiple Relationships > Summary: > Relational individuation involves utilizing relationships with various individuals to understand how they perceive and influence you, prompting self-reflection on whether you present your full self to each person or hold back certain aspects. > The process entails picturing oneself as a multifaceted jewel, questioning if one shares only a few facets with each person or openly reveals different aspects to enhance self-discovery. The goal is to integrate these insights from different relationships into one's wholeness, emphasizing the internal growth that occurs through integrating multiple external relationships. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > So I started to think of this as something I'm calling relational individuation where I explicitly use my relationships with multiple people, whether those are romantic or friendships Or family, I don't care who they are, but people close enough to me. I can use exactly what you're saying, how they're seeing me, how they're informing me, and how I'm interacting with each of them. Am I showing up as my full self? Will all of them or am I actually splintering, splitting? I like to think of myself or any of my clients, I'll ask them to picture if you were a jewel and you had all these facets. And yeah, you still got you know, you're like the back of the G the shadow stuff back there. Nobody's saying but imagine all of these beautiful facets. Are you taking your relationships and showing just a few facets to each person? Or are you actively opening yourself to know more of you through all of these different relationships? And then your job in the individuation process is getting to know and then integrate and weave these into your wholeness. It's not other people that so that's the internal part, but the external part of having multiple partners. Yeah, relational individuation. That's that's it for me. ([Time 0:13:03](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7ce92ebe-8126-4a2d-af02-1aacfc8fad1c)) > Facing Shadows for Growth in Relationships > Summary: > Exploring and confronting the shadow aspects of oneself that are not usually visible, possibly projected onto others, involves stripping away personas and masks worn for approval or likability, leading to authenticity and growth. > Integrating different aspects of one's personality across various relationships can lead to personal development as relationships serve as catalysts for growth throughout life. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > So again, in union or depth language, you face the shadow, the parts of you that are you do not see, you face it because other people are showing you some of what they're showing you is through Projection. But a bunch of it is like, Hey, you are acting your shadow out on them. But also, yeah, we have to strip away some of our persona, all those masks that we wear to help other people like us. But they're not, they're not authentic. They're not real or they're only real for very limited contexts. We'll be like trying to reintegrate your work persona right back into your home life. Many people find that to be jarring. And so do that, but do that across multiple meaningful relationships. And now you have you have access to the exact work that some of our great thinkers have said, Hey, if you face this, you will grow and you will continue to grow throughout your life. And for me, that's what relationships are for their their for growth. ([Time 0:15:10](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7a7a2b89-3764-453b-b8fb-b21b308cc257)) > Insight into Persona and Authentic Self > Summary: > Recognizing the difference between one's persona and authentic self is crucial for personal growth. > Relationships can act as mirrors, revealing areas where individuals are unconsciously masking their true selves. Choosing to show up authentically involves embracing vulnerability and the risk of rejection, ultimately leading to a more complete version of oneself. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > There's so much evidence just showing up in the literature now saying like, oh yeah, the thing that the kinksters have known for all this time. Yeah, that's that's real. And that can pay off. And most of the time, I'm watching my clients, I'm watching people I know in real life struggle to tell the difference between their persona and their actual self. And that's where it becomes so helpful to just consider that your relationships may show you where you are unconsciously masking, where you're unconsciously in your persona and bring You into greater relationship with like, oh, can I could choose this or I could choose not to I could choose to show up in a in a more complete version of me and that risks rejection. ([Time 0:18:16](https://share.snipd.com/snip/303f28eb-087c-40ef-a8a6-4d312ab65013)) > Recognizing Unmet Needs in Relationships > Summary: > Clients often realize their partners cannot meet their need for attention or understanding, leading them to acknowledge their own desires and differences in communication. > Rather than seeking divorce, many are exploring the idea of diversifying their relationships to fulfill their unmet needs. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > I have a lot of clients who are say, they're in there, they're reinvention of life, right? They've done they've they've assembled a life they really like and they don't want to burn it to the ground, but they're their needs aren't getting that. And they don't usually have the words for it. But what they describe to me is I'm not getting the attention that I want or they describe that they are they they use the words that say like we spend all of our time together, but they're But they're not like you can feel in all of the rest of their descriptions that their needs are not met. They're their desire to be seen and known is not met. And some of them and a actually a growing number of them are describing how they're recognizing that their partner, their current partner just doesn't have the capacity to to provide That. Maybe they're noticing, Oh, my my partner has is on the spectrum. Oh, oh, like they relate differently than I do. Okay, cool. How do we do this different? Or they they realize, oh, my, my desire for attention is huge. I knew my partner was an introvert when I married them, but I still married them. And my desire for attention is enormous. Oh, it's me. Oh, it's it's me. So what do I do now? And that recognition I'm finding more and more people are like, what if I didn't have to just get a divorce and go find the perfect person, but instead I decided to diversify. ([Time 0:40:57](https://share.snipd.com/snip/55e3b655-a538-4014-a79c-843ade35b8d3)) > Negotiating Attention in Relationships > Summary: > In relationships, it is crucial to negotiate attention in specific areas if one partner desires it and the other does not. > This approach allows for a compromise where partners can discuss and agree on focusing attention in certain domains rather than having an all-or-nothing mindset. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > So that feels like it's it is the game changer for people like, Oh, if I want attention in a particular realm, and my partner does not want to give it, can we negotiate about this particular Domain rather than say it's all about any of the whole thing or nothing? ([Time 0:42:48](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b9e10c78-4a26-40cd-86ec-bff34cd42b72)) > Normalization and Control in Relationships > Summary: > Regardless of the type of relationship, if normalization leads to control, it can result in an overly controlling dynamic. > The speaker reflects on their first marriage, where both partners had a controlling attitude towards each other without realizing it. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > It doesn't matter what relationship container you're in. If that's the normalization, then control. And that's that's the my first marriage was that way. I we were extraordinarily controlling of each other. We didn't know any different. ([Time 0:47:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/56e289ca-b32e-4494-8514-942c01bdeac3)) > Conversations about Jealousy in Non-Monogamous Circles > Summary: > In non-monogamous circles, it is common to have proactive, processing, and planning conversations about jealousy. > This approach is not typically present in the monogamous paradigm, but it could be beneficial to implement such discussions in monogamous relationships. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > It was so normalized in non monogamous circles to proactive, like to have three kinds of conversations, proactive meta conversations about jealousy, processing conversations About jealousy, and then planning conversations about jealousy, like community-wise. And that's just like there isn't a container for that in the monogamous paradigm. But there could be there absolutely could be ([Time 0:48:25](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0c756890-5873-47d9-a74e-085da24ba91a)) > Envy vs Jealousy and their motivational differences > Summary: > Envy arises when someone has something we want, leading to motivation as it is a direct, personal feeling without involving any third parties. > On the other hand, jealousy involves a triangular dynamic where a perceived interrupter disrupts a relationship between the jealous individual and the beloved, and can lead to dehumanization of both parties involved. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > It is true. We're given a little bit more socialization around like when somebody gets a promotion or somebody is getting married and we're not or somebody's, you know, whatever, they got something We want. But that's actually envy. It's not jealousy. And the reason I think this matters is we envy can be incredibly motivating for us because it's between it's an eye-thou thing. They have what I want and there is no third person involved, right? I can identify jealousy because it's always triangular. There could be a whole bunch of overlapping triangles, but it's always triangular. It's a social experience of triangulation. Whereas envy has just, it has me and this other. And so there is also, there's a psychological difference here because I can transmute envy into motivation really quickly and many people were taught like, oh, well, if you like that He got that trophy, cool. Go work harder on your kicking and maybe you'll get that trophy. But when we're talking about wanting someone else, right, if we're talking about jealousy, now we're talking about, I describe it this way. I have me the jealous one. I have my beloved and I have the perceived interrupter and the perceived interrupter, Jase, you are spot on. It's like they othered in this phenomenal way of like, we can dehumanize them and not treat them. And we can also dehumanize the beloved because they become an object. And that's actually how we refer to it. ([Time 0:50:07](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4869cb98-1a4c-49d2-9a64-349c555af5b2)) > Envy vs. Jealousy: The Power of Motivation > Summary: > Envy is a one-on-one feeling where 'they have what I want,' while jealousy is triangular, involving the self, the beloved, and the perceived interrupter. > Envy can serve as a powerful motivator, easily transmutable into action, as it lacks the social triangulation inherent in jealousy. Jealousy can lead to dehumanization of both the perceived interrupter and the beloved, turning them into mere objects. > The distinction is evident even in infants as young as six months old, showcasing the primal nature of these emotions. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > It is true. We're given a little bit more socialization around like when somebody gets a promotion or somebody is getting married and we're not or somebody's, you know, whatever, they got something We want. But that's actually envy. It's not jealousy. And the reason I think this matters is we envy can be incredibly motivating for us because it's between it's an eye-thou thing. They have what I want and there is no third person involved, right? I can identify jealousy because it's always triangular. There could be a whole bunch of overlapping triangles, but it's always triangular. It's a social experience of triangulation. Whereas envy has just, it has me and this other. And so there is also, there's a psychological difference here because I can transmute envy into motivation really quickly and many people were taught like, oh, well, if you like that He got that trophy, cool. Go work harder on your kicking and maybe you'll get that trophy. But when we're talking about wanting someone else, right, if we're talking about jealousy, now we're talking about, I describe it this way. I have me the jealous one. I have my beloved and I have the perceived interrupter and the perceived interrupter, Jase, you are spot on. It's like they othered in this phenomenal way of like, we can dehumanize them and not treat them. And we can also dehumanize the beloved because they become an object. And that's actually how we refer to it. We'll talk about like the jealousy, the object of my jealousy. And I think it is so remarkably different right from the gecko. We can see jealousy and infants as young as six months old. ([Time 0:50:07](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5da9aab1-cf37-4f18-b1ce-c8ba4c9c5ae2)) > Envy vs. Jealousy > Summary: > Envy harms the self, while jealousy damages relational capacity, requiring distinct approaches for coping with each emotion. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > Envy is more of an injury to the self. Jealousy is an injury to your relational capacity. So we're going to work with them differently. ([Time 0:55:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a33d1ce5-5b7e-4ecc-ba18-35ac2a93de9b)) > Navigating Jealousy in Non-Monogamous Relationships > Summary: > In non-monogamous relationships, individuals follow a five-step pathway to navigate jealousy, starting by recognizing the somatic sensations before the cognitive thoughts of jealousy arise. > By naming and owning the feeling of jealousy, individuals regain power and can address the accompanying emotions of anger, sadness, anticipatory grief, shame, and more, which can be managed more effectively as they are individually familiar emotions. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > So the number one thing that popped out of the first study that was all non monogamous people who were they were between two and 20 years in. They very clearly revealed that there was like a five step pathway that they walked themselves through in order to navigate jealousy. And I did not go looking for that. That just showed up. And I was like, Oh, okay. So they they noticed jealousy sooner, right? So the sooner you can notice that you're jealous, the easier it will be to work with it. So you need to learn your body cues. You just you need to understand that you're having somatic sensations probably before you have the cognitive thought that you're jealous. And once you've memorized those, it gets easier to deal with faster. You need to name it literally name the fact that you're feeling jealousy because ownership of that emotion returns the power of it to you like, Oh, I'm experiencing jealousy. And that puts me in a position to now say, Oh, right. Okay. Cool. The jealousy is mine. Now I'll try working on it. But we also can name all of the emotions that come with it. Right. And that was very helpful for multiple people. And I see it help people all the time. Jealousy gets thrown as like this big wet blanket over all these other emotions. And there are competing theories about whether jealousy is a simple emotion, or whether it's a complex emotion. But for me, and what my research, I what I've turned up is jealousy has accompanying emotions. It's not for me to decide whether they are jealousies made of them or they come along with. But here they are. We've got anger. We've got sadness. We've got anticipatory grief. We've got shame. There's so much. And so if people need like notice that they're feeling jealous and then name all those bits, most people already have some tools for dealing with sadness, anger, rage, control, all These other emotions that come along with it. ([Time 0:56:15](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fe856cc8-29c0-4346-9f3e-ec623d1f82ea)) > Embracing Stories of Change and Self-Acceptance > Summary: > Shifting the narrative within oneself by listening to different perspectives helps in understanding that jealousy is manageable and does not indicate personal faults or flaws in the relationship. > Recognizing the importance of setting boundaries, expressing needs openly, and actively requesting for them, forms a significant aspect of personal growth and dealing with emotions effectively. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > And then it's about like changing the story, changing the story that you're telling yourself and starting to hear other stories. I mean, I think listening to this podcast, hearing people's stories so that you start normalizing on the fact that jealousy is navigable. It is not a it does not mean anything's wrong with you. Anything's wrong with your relationship. It doesn't mean that your partner has to change what they're doing so that you feel differently. That's a huge part of it. And then, you know, I hear I'm now recalling you at a recent episode on boundaries, naming your needs, naming them, and then being able to actually ask for them. That was the fourth step. ([Time 0:58:15](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fa2595a1-5ca1-4bb1-9e6a-a6b4ba8f6f48)) > Optional Step for Conversion > Summary: > The last step mentioned is optional and involves fostering conversion. > Not everyone experiences this step, but for those who want to aim some attention towards fostering conversion, it is a recommendation. In total, there are five steps outlined. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > And then the last step and this one is totally optional. If you happen to be a person who can foster conversion and you want to do that, people who were able to foster conversion has something else to aim some of their attention at. But it wasn't required and not everybody experienced it. So that's it. Five steps. ([Time 0:59:23](https://share.snipd.com/snip/47d6ddc6-2e08-44ac-8471-be4aa1719606)) Note: Steps: 1. Notice jealousy. 2. Name jealousy. Name the other feelings associated with jealousy. 3. Normalise jealousy. 4. Ask for what you need. 5. Foster compersion. (optional) ## New highlights added April 3, 2024 at 3:01 PM > Episode AI notes > 1. The process of individuation is ongoing and involves continuous self-discovery. > 2. Relational individuation allows individuals to explore different aspects of themselves through interactions with various people. > 3. Confronting shadow aspects leads to authenticity and personal growth. > 4. Recognizing the difference between one's persona and authentic self is crucial for personal growth. > 5. Negotiating attention in relationships is essential for compromise and understanding. > 6. Conversations about jealousy are proactive in non-monogamous circles. > 7. Envy is a one-on-one feeling, while jealousy involves a triangular dynamic. > 8. In non-monogamous relationships, individuals follow a five-step pathway to navigate jealousy. > 9. Shifting the narrative within oneself helps in understanding and managing jealousy. > 10. Setting boundaries and expressing needs openly are crucial for personal growth. ([Time 0:00:00](https://share.snipd.com/episode-takeaways/6fa30431-84f6-4ec5-8e14-8ecd6ab50ebc))