# Imp of the Perverse — Struggling With Our Fiendish Shadow  URL:: https://share.snipd.com/episode/3a08625e-2a90-47c7-92ac-a143b911171f Author:: This Jungian Life Podcast ## Highlights > Episode AI notes > 1. Confession is a way for individuals to seek acceptance and forgiveness. The need for understanding and support drives the act of confession. Interpersonal transactions, including confession, are prevalent in religious traditions. Confession acts as a means of addressing the persistent influence of the unconscious mind. > 2. Raskolnikov believed in the right of extraordinary people to transgress. > 3. The impulse to step off a high building is grounded by the reminder of mortality. There is a sense of inflation in considering the consequences of stepping off a building. Raskolnikov believed he could defy the ordinary fate. > 4. An assertion of free will and assertion of just the psychological truth that every position entails its own opposite or its own negation. The earliest expression of our ability to choose is seen in the 'terrible twos', where toddlers assert themselves by saying no. We must assert ourselves against structure, authority, or any other perceived constraint. We have the capability to make choices. We must bear the consequences of our choices. > 5. The wrong choice is sometimes made because consciousness did not sufficiently confront the temptation to do it. > 6. Distressing thoughts that are disallowed may lead to intrusive thoughts and obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). Obsessive-compulsive disorder can manifest primarily through intrusive thoughts and rituals to avoid them. Scrupulosity, a kind of OCD, is related to the disallowance of certain thoughts and can significantly impact daily life. Allowing oneself to think these thoughts without negative consequences can be a remedy for OCD. Thoughts and actions should not be conflated, especially in the case of disturbing thoughts. It is important to acknowledge and welcome impish and perverse thoughts without acting on them. ([Time 0:00:00](https://share.snipd.com/episode-takeaways/f5bf68ed-c4f6-48f0-a2f5-c20c80f9b1d6)) > The Power of Confession and the Need for Acceptance > Key takeaways: > - Confession is a way for individuals to seek acceptance and forgiveness. > - The need for understanding and support drives the act of confession. > - Interpersonal transactions, including confession, are prevalent in religious traditions. > - Confession acts as a means of addressing the persistent influence of the unconscious mind. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > But she had to confess. And I think that too is very interesting that we need to feel accepted, understood, supported, forgiven. There's an interpersonal transaction that needs to take place, including in religious traditions where there is a confessor. You go to a human who is the intermediary for the divine. But we need to come clean because the unconscious won't leave us alone. ([Time 0:27:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/209c3af4-d41a-45fc-a362-ab994bd161a7)) > The Imp of the Perverse: Exploring the Idea of the Perfect Murder > Key takeaways: > - Raskolnikov believed in the right of extraordinary people to transgress. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > And so it brings in the element of inflation that Raskolnikov believed that extraordinary people have the quote, the right to transgress. So he was entitled. ([Time 0:29:22](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b0f15cc0-de19-402f-9f4d-0dedbd7ca12e)) > The portrayal of punishment in Dostoevsky's work and the concept of inflation > Key takeaways: > - The impulse to step off a high building is grounded by the reminder of mortality. > - There is a sense of inflation in considering the consequences of stepping off a building. > - Raskolnikov believed he could defy the ordinary fate. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > We get this impulse say to step off a high building. And the countervailing thought that comes up, no, I'd better not do that is really kind of grounding and reminding us, hey, I'm mortal. Because there is a sense, I mean, that is a kind of sense of inflation. Like, what if I just stepped off? What would happen? You know, it's like, would I kind of meet the expected consequence, or am I a superman, as it were? Which is kind of where Raskolnikov was. He thought I can step off this precipice and I won't meet the ordinary fate. ([Time 0:30:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/89daaac6-39d4-47d3-afd5-dfd1b18710dc)) > The Assertion of Free Will and the Terrible Twos > Key takeaways: > - An assertion of free will and assertion of just the psychological truth that every position entails its own opposite or its own negation. > - The earliest expression of our ability to choose is seen in the 'terrible twos', where toddlers assert themselves by saying no. > - We must assert ourselves against structure, authority, or any other perceived constraint. > - We have the capability to make choices. > - We must bear the consequences of our choices. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > An assertion of free will and assertion of just the psychological truth that every position entails its own opposite or its own negation. And what you just read takes me to our ability to choose. And the earliest expression of that that we have come to call the terrible twos, where even if it's not in his own self interest that toddler will say, no, no, no, and no. And sometimes you can even say, you know, you sure you really don't want to cookie and he's just on a roll and he says, no, we have to assert ourselves against structure authority, whatever, For all kinds of reasons. And then we have the capability and we have to bear the consequences of choice. ([Time 0:39:04](https://share.snipd.com/snip/577bdf2a-2cb8-4546-a5b5-8b04b8713ac2)) > "Capability", consequences of choice, and the power of consciousness > Key takeaways: > - The wrong choice is sometimes made because consciousness did not sufficiently confront the temptation to do it. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > Sometimes we make the wrong choice simply because the temptation to do it was not confronted sufficiently by consciousness. ([Time 0:40:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9b9e783e-19db-40a7-ae20-e294fbe2abc0)) > Intrusive Thoughts and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder > Key takeaways: > - Distressing thoughts that are disallowed may lead to intrusive thoughts and obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD). > - Obsessive compulsive disorder can manifest primarily through intrusive thoughts and rituals to avoid them. > - Scrupulosity, a kind of OCD, is related to the disallowance of certain thoughts and can significantly impact daily life. > - Allowing oneself to think these thoughts without negative consequences can be a remedy for OCD. > - Thoughts and actions should not be conflated, especially in the case of disturbing thoughts. > - It is important to acknowledge and welcome impish and perverse thoughts without acting on them. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > And for some of us who experienced this lapel du vied, for example, we may find ourselves so distressed by those thoughts that we disallow them and that just kind of turns up the heat on This whole phenomenon. And we may spend so much time trying not to think about things that they get experienced then as in what we would call intrusive thoughts. And this can actually be related to obsessive compulsive disorder. Some people experience obsessive compulsive disorder primarily through such intrusive thoughts that often demand rituals in order to avoid thinking the thought or to keep it at Bay. And there's even a particular kind of obsessive compulsive disorder called scrupulosity, which is, I think, very related to what Jung was having happen with this image of the Basel Cathedral that you think I'm not allowed to think this. I'm not allowed to think this. And it can become quite distressing into the extent that it prevents us from being able to kind of do our lives, to go to work, to have conversations. Maybe it takes us twice as long to get to work because we're performing all kinds of rituals to keep ourselves from thinking those illicit thoughts. Then it's really a problem. So this, in-growth of perverse, kind of has little tentacles into this area of obsessive compulsive disorder. And perhaps the remedy to that, in some sense, is to do what Jung did, which is allow himself to think the thought and to recognize that there was no negative consequence as a result. > Speaker 2 > To think the thought and feel the feelings, which are often very intense and very, very hard to bear, but something is knocking at the door and needs and wants to be admitted to consciousness, Just as Jung finally realized that he had to think the thought about the turd falling through the roof of the cathedral. And actually, as we think about it and talk about it here, is that really so terrible? > Speaker 3 > It was a thought. > Speaker 2 > It was not an action. But kids tend to conflate thought and action. That if I think about thought, then somehow it might happen. And therefore, we try to repress the whole thing. If only that worked, but it doesn't. > Speaker 1 > So some of what may come knocking on your door may be a little impish and perverse. It's not necessarily a good idea to act on these, but it's certainly we can welcome the impish and perverse thoughts. ([Time 0:41:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a688f86a-7527-487e-8089-a58747816926)) --- Title: Imp of the Perverse — Struggling With Our Fiendish Shadow Author: This Jungian Life Podcast Tags: readwise, podcasts date: 2024-01-30 --- # Imp of the Perverse — Struggling With Our Fiendish Shadow  URL:: https://share.snipd.com/episode/3a08625e-2a90-47c7-92ac-a143b911171f Author:: This Jungian Life Podcast ## AI-Generated Summary None ## Highlights > Episode AI notes > 1. Confession is a way for individuals to seek acceptance and forgiveness. The need for understanding and support drives the act of confession. Interpersonal transactions, including confession, are prevalent in religious traditions. Confession acts as a means of addressing the persistent influence of the unconscious mind. > 2. Raskolnikov believed in the right of extraordinary people to transgress. > 3. The impulse to step off a high building is grounded by the reminder of mortality. There is a sense of inflation in considering the consequences of stepping off a building. Raskolnikov believed he could defy the ordinary fate. > 4. An assertion of free will and assertion of just the psychological truth that every position entails its own opposite or its own negation. The earliest expression of our ability to choose is seen in the 'terrible twos', where toddlers assert themselves by saying no. We must assert ourselves against structure, authority, or any other perceived constraint. We have the capability to make choices. We must bear the consequences of our choices. > 5. The wrong choice is sometimes made because consciousness did not sufficiently confront the temptation to do it. > 6. Distressing thoughts that are disallowed may lead to intrusive thoughts and obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). Obsessive-compulsive disorder can manifest primarily through intrusive thoughts and rituals to avoid them. Scrupulosity, a kind of OCD, is related to the disallowance of certain thoughts and can significantly impact daily life. Allowing oneself to think these thoughts without negative consequences can be a remedy for OCD. Thoughts and actions should not be conflated, especially in the case of disturbing thoughts. It is important to acknowledge and welcome impish and perverse thoughts without acting on them. ([Time 0:00:00](https://share.snipd.com/episode-takeaways/f5bf68ed-c4f6-48f0-a2f5-c20c80f9b1d6)) > The Power of Confession and the Need for Acceptance > Summary: > We all have a need to feel accepted, understood, supported, and forgiven. This is evident in religious traditions where there is a confessor acting as an intermediary between humans and the divine. However, even outside of religious contexts, we are compelled to confess because our unconscious thoughts and feelings persist until we do so. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > But she had to confess. And I think that too is very interesting that we need to feel accepted, understood, supported, forgiven. There's an interpersonal transaction that needs to take place, including in religious traditions where there is a confessor. You go to a human who is the intermediary for the divine. But we need to come clean because the unconscious won't leave us alone. ([Time 0:27:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/209c3af4-d41a-45fc-a362-ab994bd161a7)) > The Imp of the Perverse: Exploring the Idea of the Perfect Murder > Summary: > Raskolnikov believed extraordinary people had the right to transgress, including the element of inflation. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > And so it brings in the element of inflation that Raskolnikov believed that extraordinary people have the quote, the right to transgress. So he was entitled. ([Time 0:29:22](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b0f15cc0-de19-402f-9f4d-0dedbd7ca12e)) > The portrayal of punishment in Dostoevsky's work and the concept of inflation > Summary: > The impulse to jump off a high building is countered by the grounding reminder of mortality. It's a sense of inflation, questioning if one would meet expected consequences or be a superman. Similar to Raskolnikov's belief that he could avoid ordinary fate. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > We get this impulse say to step off a high building. And the countervailing thought that comes up, no, I'd better not do that is really kind of grounding and reminding us, hey, I'm mortal. Because there is a sense, I mean, that is a kind of sense of inflation. Like, what if I just stepped off? What would happen? You know, it's like, would I kind of meet the expected consequence, or am I a superman, as it were? Which is kind of where Raskolnikov was. He thought I can step off this precipice and I won't meet the ordinary fate. ([Time 0:30:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/89daaac6-39d4-47d3-afd5-dfd1b18710dc)) > The Assertion of Free Will and the Terrible Twos > Summary: > An assertion of free will is also an assertion of the psychological truth that every position has its opposite or negation. This relates to the 'terrible twos' stage, where toddlers assert their ability to choose by saying 'no' even when it's not in their self-interest. We have the capability to assert ourselves against authority, and we must accept the consequences of our choices. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > An assertion of free will and assertion of just the psychological truth that every position entails its own opposite or its own negation. And what you just read takes me to our ability to choose. And the earliest expression of that that we have come to call the terrible twos, where even if it's not in his own self interest that toddler will say, no, no, no, and no. And sometimes you can even say, you know, you sure you really don't want to cookie and he's just on a roll and he says, no, we have to assert ourselves against structure authority, whatever, For all kinds of reasons. And then we have the capability and we have to bear the consequences of choice. ([Time 0:39:04](https://share.snipd.com/snip/577bdf2a-2cb8-4546-a5b5-8b04b8713ac2)) > "Capability", consequences of choice, and the power of consciousness > Summary: > Consciousness can sometimes be insufficient in confronting the temptation to make the wrong choice. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > Sometimes we make the wrong choice simply because the temptation to do it was not confronted sufficiently by consciousness. ([Time 0:40:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9b9e783e-19db-40a7-ae20-e294fbe2abc0)) > Intrusive Thoughts and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder > Summary: > Intrusive thoughts and obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) are often linked, as people try to avoid these thoughts through rituals. This can hinder daily life and cause distress. A specific form of OCD called scrupulosity is closely related to the experience Jung had with the Basel Cathedral image. To address these thoughts, it is helpful to follow Jung's example and allow ourselves to think them without negative consequences. While these thoughts may be intense and difficult, they need to be acknowledged and accepted. It is important to differentiate between thoughts and actions, as children often conflate the two. Repressing these thoughts is not effective, but welcoming them without acting on them is a better approach. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > And for some of us who experienced this lapel du vied, for example, we may find ourselves so distressed by those thoughts that we disallow them and that just kind of turns up the heat on This whole phenomenon. And we may spend so much time trying not to think about things that they get experienced then as in what we would call intrusive thoughts. And this can actually be related to obsessive compulsive disorder. Some people experience obsessive compulsive disorder primarily through such intrusive thoughts that often demand rituals in order to avoid thinking the thought or to keep it at Bay. And there's even a particular kind of obsessive compulsive disorder called scrupulosity, which is, I think, very related to what Jung was having happen with this image of the Basel Cathedral that you think I'm not allowed to think this. I'm not allowed to think this. And it can become quite distressing into the extent that it prevents us from being able to kind of do our lives, to go to work, to have conversations. Maybe it takes us twice as long to get to work because we're performing all kinds of rituals to keep ourselves from thinking those illicit thoughts. Then it's really a problem. So this, in-growth of perverse, kind of has little tentacles into this area of obsessive compulsive disorder. And perhaps the remedy to that, in some sense, is to do what Jung did, which is allow himself to think the thought and to recognize that there was no negative consequence as a result. > Speaker 2 > To think the thought and feel the feelings, which are often very intense and very, very hard to bear, but something is knocking at the door and needs and wants to be admitted to consciousness, Just as Jung finally realized that he had to think the thought about the turd falling through the roof of the cathedral. And actually, as we think about it and talk about it here, is that really so terrible? > Speaker 3 > It was a thought. > Speaker 2 > It was not an action. But kids tend to conflate thought and action. That if I think about thought, then somehow it might happen. And therefore, we try to repress the whole thing. If only that worked, but it doesn't. > Speaker 1 > So some of what may come knocking on your door may be a little impish and perverse. It's not necessarily a good idea to act on these, but it's certainly we can welcome the impish and perverse thoughts. ([Time 0:41:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a688f86a-7527-487e-8089-a58747816926))