# OCD — the Distress of Repression  URL:: https://share.snipd.com/episode/e8889eea-da13-4181-aad9-ddcc1a94a408 Author:: This Jungian Life Podcast ## Highlights > Episode AI notes > 1. Obsessions and compulsions often go together and can be related to unexpressed emotions, over-controlled childhood experiences, and coping mechanisms formed as a result. > 2. Having a bit of OCD can lead to being conscientious and successful, as these tendencies can help individuals navigate the world. > 3. Obsessions and compulsions can reveal a spiritual wound and a longing for a trusting relationship with the divine. > 4. OCD can arise as a substitute for a more spiritualized attitude toward the eternal, with rituals being an attempt to exert control over uncertainties. > 5. The primary relationship with parental authority can impact how individuals perceive the divine, leading to an obsessive, compulsive concern with atonement and making amends. > 6. Obsessive-compulsive behaviors can arise from an estrangement from one's own feelings and an over-emphasis on control, rationality, morals, and rules. > 7. Compulsive gestures, such as hand washing, can serve as atonement for perceived moral sins. > 8. Obsessions are an avoidance of something more painful, and fear isn't always rational. > 9. The fairy tale of the girl with red shoes symbolizes unmet needs and the damaging effects of escaping true feelings through compulsive behavior. > 10. Understanding the etiology of OCD involves tracing missed connections with oneself and emotions, without blaming external factors. > 11. OCD is a spiritual problem, demanding a connection beyond rationality. > 12. Being nice can become a dangerous religious practice, perpetuating problems and prohibiting the expression of anger. > 13. Internalized expectations to always be nice can have a haunting impact on one's life. ([Time 0:00:00](https://share.snipd.com/episode-takeaways/570f31fb-8cc3-44c4-94e9-d1215bcd2f8d)) > OCD in the modern context > Summary: > OCD can be related to unexpressed emotions, over-controlled childhood experiences, and coping mechanisms formed as a result. In the modern Western society, there is an emphasis on thinking and doing, neglecting the value of feeling, intuiting, and playing. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > A lot of theories about unexpressed emotions, some ideas about being over controlled in our childhood, and ways that we cope with those dynamics as we have internalized them. Today, we're going to talk about OCD. > Speaker 3 > I think the framework or the lens for this is just really very, very broad, wide, especially in today's society. Where we have a society in the Western world, and certainly in this country, that emphasizes thinking and doing as normative kinds of values. We don't emphasize lying out in the tall grass, looking at the clouds. We don't emphasize feeling, intuiting, listening, playing. ([Time 0:01:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/72b74d04-bfb5-46ad-a2e2-8263244efc7c)) > OCD can be adaptive and come woth success > Summary: > Having a bit of OCD can lead to being incredibly conscientious and successful, even though it may bring some pain. These tendencies can help individuals navigate the world successfully to a certain extent. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > A little bit of OCD often means that we're incredibly conscientious, and it can go along with being quite successful. So I'm not necessarily talking about having the full-blown diagnosis, but tendencies in that direction in the modern world, I think as you're making the point, Deb, can be adaptive. Now they might cause pain, but they also can bring with them this ability to navigate the world, very successfully to an extent. ([Time 0:02:41](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2023eaf0-63ae-4e90-b6d8-64522b1d0e03)) > Obsession as a wound in our relationship to the divine > Summary: > Beneath every obsession lies a hidden archetype. Obsessions and compulsions can reveal a spiritual wound. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > I feel that at the bottom of every obsession, there is a disavowed archetype. And that obsession and compulsions can often indicate a kind of wound in our relationship with the divine. ([Time 0:03:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/860b4401-6e26-476d-ac18-7765060b4fdf)) > OCD as a longing for religious rituals > Summary: > The core experience of having a trusting relationship with the transcendent or the divine, or the unconscious, is lacking for many of us, leading to obsessions and compulsions as attempts to appease an unseen or unacknowledged God. These responses to obsessive anxieties are called rituals, signaling a loss of ritual and symbolic thinking, which can lead to OCD as a substitute for a more spiritualized attitude toward the eternal. OCD reflects an intense need to exert control over the uncertainties of life through ritualized behaviors, such as hand washing or checking locks, in an attempt to ensure safety. However, these rituals do not work and often exacerbate anxiety, creating a cycle of control and anxiety. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > I'm really speaking about that more core experience of having a trusting relationship with the transcendent or the divine, or the unconscious, if you prefer, to use that language, And that when that is lacking, as it is for many of us, obsessions and compulsions become attempts to appease this unseen or unacknowledged God. And what do we call the things that we do in response to our obsessive anxieties? We call them rituals. And I feel that it's possibly a loss of ritual and symbolic thinking, kind of cultivation of spirituality that can lead to OCD as a kind of pale substitute for a more spiritualized attitude Toward the eternal. > Speaker 3 > It sounds to me like what we're talking about here is an intense need to exert control over all the uncertainties of life, all the ambiguities, ambivalence, all of that kind of thing Through the ritualized things that we've all heard about, like hand washing or checking locks or checking the stove, as if this can somehow magically ensure a kind of safety. And the problem, of course, is that you can't get enough of what you really don't need. It doesn't work, and then it takes over. So the very thing that people try to do to assuage anxiety winds up creating more anxiety. ([Time 0:04:33](https://share.snipd.com/snip/87d99da6-91c3-49fe-b13a-b538d3bbc05e)) > OCD as an obsession with atonement > Summary: > The primary relationship to parental authority can become the template for how we experience the divine, leading to a frightening, over-controlled, excessive interest in the child's life. This can result in the development of coping mechanisms, such as obsessive, compulsive concern with atonement. This can manifest as a constant need to expiate sinfulness or an overcompensation for social transgressions. People with OCD may become overly corrective, involved with repairing mistakes, or overly concerned with making amends with God. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > I can imagine that because the primary relationship to the parental authority is so problematic that that would then become the template for how we experience the divine, particularly If we're raised in a home, where God is presented as a parental kind of anthropomorphic figure. And so then both the divine, the transcendent and the parents share this frightening, over-controlled, excessive interest in every aspect of the child's life. And then the child has to develop kind of coping mechanisms around that. One of the coping mechanisms can be a kind of obsessive, compulsive concern with atonement of one form or another. That the divine is constantly asking something of me to expiate what's horrible about me, my sinfulness, or that I have to constantly overcompensate for even small transgressions In the social sphere, particularly if I've done something that was socially inappropriate. So OCD troubled folks can wind up being overly corrective, being overly involved with concern for the other person and how much they have to do to repair this mistake that they've made, Or overly concerned with what they have to do to make God right with them. ([Time 0:07:22](https://share.snipd.com/snip/aade21df-37f1-43ad-9f0f-f5b268ff4596)) > OCD arising from an estrangement from feeling > Summary: > The feeling tone with which a child is raised, including deficiency, guilt-tripping, or lack of parental involvement, can lead to difficulties in life and symptoms such as obsessive-compulsive behaviors. This is because obsessive-compulsive behavior arises from an estrangement from one's own feeling functions. > Transcript: > Speaker 3 > And your idea that there is a spiritual underlying dilemma to add that I think the underlying dilemma is the feeling tone with which a child is raised, and that if it is really deficient, Children are guilt tripped or shamed, or if there is simply a lack of enough parental involvement, enough connection, enough caring about who you are. I think that can sprout into difficulties in life or even symptoms in a hundred ways. And one of those ways is what we're talking about today, obsessive compulsive stuff, because it is an estrangement from one's own feeling functions. ([Time 0:14:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3461a09b-3542-4d31-a996-a202a41de71d)) > OCD as an over-emphasis on rationality and rules > Transcript: > Speaker 3 > What I look at and atone to is the estrangement from feeling and the distance from the unconscious. And that it is an over-emphasis on controlling and an over-emphasis on cognition, rationality, reason, moralism, righteousness, rules. ([Time 0:17:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/80e516eb-5ac8-47b0-aa61-715686c86cdf)) > Compulsive gestures as an atonement for moral sins > Summary: > Jung's idea suggests that our symptoms are the psyche's way of resolving psychological difficulties, such as compulsive hand washing being a coping mechanism. Jungians consider the symbolic meaning of gestures, like hand washing reminiscent of expiating a sin, as seen in Lady Macbeth's compulsive hand rubbing to cleanse a perceived moral stain. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > Jung's idea is that our symptoms are the psyche's best way at the moment of resolving some kind of psychological difficulty that we really are trying to move through. So even the compulsive hand washing, if we use that as an example, is the best coping mechanism that's available. Now sometimes as Jungians we're also interested in the symbolic meaning of some of these gestures. When I think of the washing of the hands, it reminds me of part of that religious feeling of expiating a sin and I think of Lady Macbeth. After she's coordinated with her husband to kill the king, she's sleepwalking and she's constantly compulsively rubbing on her hand saying, out, out, damn spot, that there's this Moral stain that she feels she has and perhaps even rightly so. ([Time 0:20:01](https://share.snipd.com/snip/003257fd-684b-40be-8c6b-4ebe51dee4ec)) > Where’s the dirt here? > Transcript: > Speaker 3 > It's compensation for something that the person is unconscious of that is dirty, that is sinful, that is wrong, trying to expiate. So we'd be curious about, yeah, where's the dirt here? ([Time 0:23:21](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a5ed47d9-1377-4333-aa15-5cf56ef2c024)) > All obsessions are an avoidance of something more painful > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > Karen Morota, the wonderful psychoanalyst, I have a quote from her. It's just so simple, so plain, so clear. She says, all obsessions represent an avoidance of something more painful. ([Time 0:27:05](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4b8f5d43-0a7b-4d3e-9910-22c03c505b74)) > Fear isn’t rational > Summary: > Fear operates at an emotional level, disregarding the probability of an event. The knowledge of unexpected tragedies happening without reason is ingrained and cannot be undone, leading to an irrational fear. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > At an emotional level, it didn't matter that the chance of X, Y, and Z happening was 0.05%. It didn't matter because she knew something. She had this knowledge that terrible things can happen out of the blue for no reason. And that once you know that, you can't unknow it. And it was not a rational problem that she had. ([Time 0:29:25](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b9709ae7-0211-4c2b-b639-218928b84ea3)) > Fairy tale of the girl with red shoes > Summary: > The fairy tale of the red shoes symbolizes unmet developmental needs and the compulsive behavior to avoid the more terrible feelings. The little girl's need for something wonderful is represented by the red shoes, which she clings to despite the harm they cause. The story reflects how unmet needs can manifest in objects and lead to compulsive actions, as an attempt to push away more terrible feelings such as being orphaned, adopted, and having no resources. The more one tries to replace feeling with compulsive behavior, the more overwhelming and compelling it becomes, even if it's injuring. > Transcript: > Speaker 3 > There's a fairy tale about that. The well-known fairy tale of the red shoes where this poor little girl doesn't have any shoes and some lady from the village makes her some shoes from scraps of red cloth. This is all this little girl has for goodness in the world, these little cloth red shoes. And eventually she is adopted by an old lady who wants to rear her and of course takes these cloth red shoes and tosses them out because they're just rags. And the story goes on where she eventually buys some red shoes because her old lady adoptive mother doesn't have very good eyesight and can't really tell. And she wants to wear them to church and so it goes. And eventually because she cannot let go of these red shoes, they are dancing with her through the streets. They take over the things she cannot take off. And in some stories she dances and dances till she drops down dead, some stories, you know, she finally has her feet cut off at her own request. But what was unacknowledged in that story was this child who was so poor and how that child felt and that child's need for something wonderful and all she had were red shoes. > Speaker 2 > It really speaks to how these unmet developmental needs can land on an object like the red shoes and then the compulsive dancing, dancing oneself to death becomes the repetitive action That tries over and over again to squash, push away, resist the more terrible feeling of, for instance, being orphaned, being adopted, having no resources, being frightened of the World. And then the more that we try to replace feeling with dancing so to speak, the more overwhelming and compelling the dancing becomes even when we know it's injuring us. ([Time 0:32:04](https://share.snipd.com/snip/72bd4b05-bd6a-4329-9252-a781446704d3)) > The inner work of figuring out where you missed a connection with yourself > Summary: > The focus is on replacing feelings with achievements and other things, while the important aspect is the inner work of tracing when we missed a connection with ourselves and our true emotions, rather than blaming external factors like parental figures or events. > Transcript: > Speaker 3 > We replace feeling with achievement, we replace feeling with hand washing, we replace feeling with all kinds of things. And that's why the etiology is important is what happened. It's not necessarily, you know, this parent did that or the other parent didn't do something else. As tracing where things inside went awry, where you missed a connection with yourself and what you really wanted felt were sad about, angry about, that's really what we're looking For rather than hanging it on some external world parental figure or some other institution or event. > Speaker 1 > I think that it is about kind of where it went awry, where we missed ourselves. ([Time 0:34:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/087cdc82-a1b8-4620-a57d-1bde58e0d24a)) > OCD as a cry of the psyche to be related to in a non-rational way > Summary: > OCD behaviors may seem irrational, but they represent a cry from the soul to be related to outside of rationality. These behaviors are a demand of the psyche to relate to the irrational or the non-rational, signifying a spiritual problem. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > And that's such a good point, Joseph. And it's important, or I want to link it back to my thesis about this being kind of a spiritual problem. Because of course, one of the truths about OCD is that you're doing these crazy rituals. And rationally, you know it's nuts. You rationally know that the world is not going to end if you stop circling around your kitchen or whatever it is. You're checking doors. But it doesn't matter because it's not a rational problem. It is in some sense a cry from the soul to be related to outside of the rational framing of things. It is a sort of intrusion of the irrational. It's a demand of the psyche to relate to the irrational or the non rational. ([Time 0:41:07](https://share.snipd.com/snip/db9fc52b-9134-459d-bec2-f9abd54e9f47)) > “Nicianity” as a religion of stuffing down real feelings with false niceness > Summary: > In some southern communities, it's religiously prohibited to express anger or complaints, leading to a phenomenon called 'Nicianity' where people suppress real feelings with false niceness. This false niceness carries a sense of threat, leading to discord and perpetuating the problem by teaching children that being nice is the only acceptable form of expression. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > I've definitely seen this living down in the south, that it is even religiously prohibited for someone to be aggressive or to complain even or let alone to be angry so that the more angry One gets the more casseroles they distribute. The more angry they get the sweeter they try to become in general, but the sweetness has a certain kind of menace to it. You better come along so that it becomes kind of a religion, niciosity or nicianity becomes its own form of dangerous religion, because in the name of being nice, people can sometimes Create a kind of dis-cord, sometimes create an awful lot of discord around them, and also perpetuate the problem by telling their children that being nice is the only mode of expression That's permissible. ([Time 0:43:43](https://share.snipd.com/snip/93e405a8-67a8-4d2d-b1d1-71074a33a9d4)) > Internalising being nice > Summary: > Embedding the idea of being nice was instilled in a friend from the deep south during her childhood by her mother, which lingered on even after her marriage. This constant reminder had a profound effect on her, influencing how she presented herself to the world. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > I once had a friend who's deceased now, but she was raised in the deep, deep south, and we had long conversations over the many years, and many times she referenced how every day when she Left for school, her mother would kind of get her all dressed up in the way that they would in that generation and look her square in the face and say, you be nice. Every single day of her childhood, and so it kind of became this ghost long after she had married and set up a lie from other who passed away, she was constantly at war with this edict of Having to present as nice. ([Time 0:44:47](https://share.snipd.com/snip/973c4959-7747-4e0e-87da-51d99258572f)) - Note: My version of this is being told “Be good— often. --- Title: OCD — the Distress of Repression Author: This Jungian Life Podcast Tags: readwise, podcasts date: 2024-01-30 --- # OCD — the Distress of Repression  URL:: https://share.snipd.com/episode/e8889eea-da13-4181-aad9-ddcc1a94a408 Author:: This Jungian Life Podcast ## AI-Generated Summary None ## Highlights > Episode AI notes > 1. Obsessions and compulsions often go together and can be related to unexpressed emotions, over-controlled childhood experiences, and coping mechanisms formed as a result. > 2. Having a bit of OCD can lead to being conscientious and successful, as these tendencies can help individuals navigate the world. > 3. Obsessions and compulsions can reveal a spiritual wound and a longing for a trusting relationship with the divine. > 4. OCD can arise as a substitute for a more spiritualized attitude toward the eternal, with rituals being an attempt to exert control over uncertainties. > 5. The primary relationship with parental authority can impact how individuals perceive the divine, leading to an obsessive, compulsive concern with atonement and making amends. > 6. Obsessive-compulsive behaviors can arise from an estrangement from one's own feelings and an over-emphasis on control, rationality, morals, and rules. > 7. Compulsive gestures, such as hand washing, can serve as atonement for perceived moral sins. > 8. Obsessions are an avoidance of something more painful, and fear isn't always rational. > 9. The fairy tale of the girl with red shoes symbolizes unmet needs and the damaging effects of escaping true feelings through compulsive behavior. > 10. Understanding the etiology of OCD involves tracing missed connections with oneself and emotions, without blaming external factors. > 11. OCD is a spiritual problem, demanding a connection beyond rationality. > 12. Being nice can become a dangerous religious practice, perpetuating problems and prohibiting the expression of anger. > 13. Internalized expectations to always be nice can have a haunting impact on one's life. ([Time 0:00:00](https://share.snipd.com/episode-takeaways/570f31fb-8cc3-44c4-94e9-d1215bcd2f8d)) > OCD in the modern context > Summary: > OCD can be related to unexpressed emotions, over-controlled childhood experiences, and coping mechanisms formed as a result. In the modern Western society, there is an emphasis on thinking and doing, neglecting the value of feeling, intuiting, and playing. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > A lot of theories about unexpressed emotions, some ideas about being over controlled in our childhood, and ways that we cope with those dynamics as we have internalized them. Today, we're going to talk about OCD. > Speaker 3 > I think the framework or the lens for this is just really very, very broad, wide, especially in today's society. Where we have a society in the Western world, and certainly in this country, that emphasizes thinking and doing as normative kinds of values. We don't emphasize lying out in the tall grass, looking at the clouds. We don't emphasize feeling, intuiting, listening, playing. ([Time 0:01:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/72b74d04-bfb5-46ad-a2e2-8263244efc7c)) > OCD can be adaptive and come woth success > Summary: > Having a bit of OCD can lead to being incredibly conscientious and successful, even though it may bring some pain. These tendencies can help individuals navigate the world successfully to a certain extent. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > A little bit of OCD often means that we're incredibly conscientious, and it can go along with being quite successful. So I'm not necessarily talking about having the full-blown diagnosis, but tendencies in that direction in the modern world, I think as you're making the point, Deb, can be adaptive. Now they might cause pain, but they also can bring with them this ability to navigate the world, very successfully to an extent. ([Time 0:02:41](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2023eaf0-63ae-4e90-b6d8-64522b1d0e03)) > Obsession as a wound in our relationship to the divine > Summary: > Beneath every obsession lies a hidden archetype. Obsessions and compulsions can reveal a spiritual wound. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > I feel that at the bottom of every obsession, there is a disavowed archetype. And that obsession and compulsions can often indicate a kind of wound in our relationship with the divine. ([Time 0:03:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/860b4401-6e26-476d-ac18-7765060b4fdf)) > OCD as a longing for religious rituals > Summary: > The core experience of having a trusting relationship with the transcendent or the divine, or the unconscious, is lacking for many of us, leading to obsessions and compulsions as attempts to appease an unseen or unacknowledged God. These responses to obsessive anxieties are called rituals, signaling a loss of ritual and symbolic thinking, which can lead to OCD as a substitute for a more spiritualized attitude toward the eternal. OCD reflects an intense need to exert control over the uncertainties of life through ritualized behaviors, such as hand washing or checking locks, in an attempt to ensure safety. However, these rituals do not work and often exacerbate anxiety, creating a cycle of control and anxiety. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > I'm really speaking about that more core experience of having a trusting relationship with the transcendent or the divine, or the unconscious, if you prefer, to use that language, And that when that is lacking, as it is for many of us, obsessions and compulsions become attempts to appease this unseen or unacknowledged God. And what do we call the things that we do in response to our obsessive anxieties? We call them rituals. And I feel that it's possibly a loss of ritual and symbolic thinking, kind of cultivation of spirituality that can lead to OCD as a kind of pale substitute for a more spiritualized attitude Toward the eternal. > Speaker 3 > It sounds to me like what we're talking about here is an intense need to exert control over all the uncertainties of life, all the ambiguities, ambivalence, all of that kind of thing Through the ritualized things that we've all heard about, like hand washing or checking locks or checking the stove, as if this can somehow magically ensure a kind of safety. And the problem, of course, is that you can't get enough of what you really don't need. It doesn't work, and then it takes over. So the very thing that people try to do to assuage anxiety winds up creating more anxiety. ([Time 0:04:33](https://share.snipd.com/snip/87d99da6-91c3-49fe-b13a-b538d3bbc05e)) > OCD as an obsession with atonement > Summary: > The primary relationship to parental authority can become the template for how we experience the divine, leading to a frightening, over-controlled, excessive interest in the child's life. This can result in the development of coping mechanisms, such as obsessive, compulsive concern with atonement. This can manifest as a constant need to expiate sinfulness or an overcompensation for social transgressions. People with OCD may become overly corrective, involved with repairing mistakes, or overly concerned with making amends with God. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > I can imagine that because the primary relationship to the parental authority is so problematic that that would then become the template for how we experience the divine, particularly If we're raised in a home, where God is presented as a parental kind of anthropomorphic figure. And so then both the divine, the transcendent and the parents share this frightening, over-controlled, excessive interest in every aspect of the child's life. And then the child has to develop kind of coping mechanisms around that. One of the coping mechanisms can be a kind of obsessive, compulsive concern with atonement of one form or another. That the divine is constantly asking something of me to expiate what's horrible about me, my sinfulness, or that I have to constantly overcompensate for even small transgressions In the social sphere, particularly if I've done something that was socially inappropriate. So OCD troubled folks can wind up being overly corrective, being overly involved with concern for the other person and how much they have to do to repair this mistake that they've made, Or overly concerned with what they have to do to make God right with them. ([Time 0:07:22](https://share.snipd.com/snip/aade21df-37f1-43ad-9f0f-f5b268ff4596)) > OCD arising from an estrangement from feeling > Summary: > The feeling tone with which a child is raised, including deficiency, guilt-tripping, or lack of parental involvement, can lead to difficulties in life and symptoms such as obsessive-compulsive behaviors. This is because obsessive-compulsive behavior arises from an estrangement from one's own feeling functions. > Transcript: > Speaker 3 > And your idea that there is a spiritual underlying dilemma to add that I think the underlying dilemma is the feeling tone with which a child is raised, and that if it is really deficient, Children are guilt tripped or shamed, or if there is simply a lack of enough parental involvement, enough connection, enough caring about who you are. I think that can sprout into difficulties in life or even symptoms in a hundred ways. And one of those ways is what we're talking about today, obsessive compulsive stuff, because it is an estrangement from one's own feeling functions. ([Time 0:14:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3461a09b-3542-4d31-a996-a202a41de71d)) > OCD as an over-emphasis on rationality and rules > Transcript: > Speaker 3 > What I look at and atone to is the estrangement from feeling and the distance from the unconscious. And that it is an over-emphasis on controlling and an over-emphasis on cognition, rationality, reason, moralism, righteousness, rules. ([Time 0:17:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/80e516eb-5ac8-47b0-aa61-715686c86cdf)) > Compulsive gestures as an atonement for moral sins > Summary: > Jung's idea suggests that our symptoms are the psyche's way of resolving psychological difficulties, such as compulsive hand washing being a coping mechanism. Jungians consider the symbolic meaning of gestures, like hand washing reminiscent of expiating a sin, as seen in Lady Macbeth's compulsive hand rubbing to cleanse a perceived moral stain. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > Jung's idea is that our symptoms are the psyche's best way at the moment of resolving some kind of psychological difficulty that we really are trying to move through. So even the compulsive hand washing, if we use that as an example, is the best coping mechanism that's available. Now sometimes as Jungians we're also interested in the symbolic meaning of some of these gestures. When I think of the washing of the hands, it reminds me of part of that religious feeling of expiating a sin and I think of Lady Macbeth. After she's coordinated with her husband to kill the king, she's sleepwalking and she's constantly compulsively rubbing on her hand saying, out, out, damn spot, that there's this Moral stain that she feels she has and perhaps even rightly so. ([Time 0:20:01](https://share.snipd.com/snip/003257fd-684b-40be-8c6b-4ebe51dee4ec)) > Where’s the dirt here? > Transcript: > Speaker 3 > It's compensation for something that the person is unconscious of that is dirty, that is sinful, that is wrong, trying to expiate. So we'd be curious about, yeah, where's the dirt here? ([Time 0:23:21](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a5ed47d9-1377-4333-aa15-5cf56ef2c024)) > All obsessions are an avoidance of something more painful > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > Karen Morota, the wonderful psychoanalyst, I have a quote from her. It's just so simple, so plain, so clear. She says, all obsessions represent an avoidance of something more painful. ([Time 0:27:05](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4b8f5d43-0a7b-4d3e-9910-22c03c505b74)) > Fear isn’t rational > Summary: > Fear operates at an emotional level, disregarding the probability of an event. The knowledge of unexpected tragedies happening without reason is ingrained and cannot be undone, leading to an irrational fear. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > At an emotional level, it didn't matter that the chance of X, Y, and Z happening was 0.05%. It didn't matter because she knew something. She had this knowledge that terrible things can happen out of the blue for no reason. And that once you know that, you can't unknow it. And it was not a rational problem that she had. ([Time 0:29:25](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b9709ae7-0211-4c2b-b639-218928b84ea3)) > Fairy tale of the girl with red shoes > Summary: > The fairy tale of the red shoes symbolizes unmet developmental needs and the compulsive behavior to avoid the more terrible feelings. The little girl's need for something wonderful is represented by the red shoes, which she clings to despite the harm they cause. The story reflects how unmet needs can manifest in objects and lead to compulsive actions, as an attempt to push away more terrible feelings such as being orphaned, adopted, and having no resources. The more one tries to replace feeling with compulsive behavior, the more overwhelming and compelling it becomes, even if it's injuring. > Transcript: > Speaker 3 > There's a fairy tale about that. The well-known fairy tale of the red shoes where this poor little girl doesn't have any shoes and some lady from the village makes her some shoes from scraps of red cloth. This is all this little girl has for goodness in the world, these little cloth red shoes. And eventually she is adopted by an old lady who wants to rear her and of course takes these cloth red shoes and tosses them out because they're just rags. And the story goes on where she eventually buys some red shoes because her old lady adoptive mother doesn't have very good eyesight and can't really tell. And she wants to wear them to church and so it goes. And eventually because she cannot let go of these red shoes, they are dancing with her through the streets. They take over the things she cannot take off. And in some stories she dances and dances till she drops down dead, some stories, you know, she finally has her feet cut off at her own request. But what was unacknowledged in that story was this child who was so poor and how that child felt and that child's need for something wonderful and all she had were red shoes. > Speaker 2 > It really speaks to how these unmet developmental needs can land on an object like the red shoes and then the compulsive dancing, dancing oneself to death becomes the repetitive action That tries over and over again to squash, push away, resist the more terrible feeling of, for instance, being orphaned, being adopted, having no resources, being frightened of the World. And then the more that we try to replace feeling with dancing so to speak, the more overwhelming and compelling the dancing becomes even when we know it's injuring us. ([Time 0:32:04](https://share.snipd.com/snip/72bd4b05-bd6a-4329-9252-a781446704d3)) > The inner work of figuring out where you missed a connection with yourself > Summary: > The focus is on replacing feelings with achievements and other things, while the important aspect is the inner work of tracing when we missed a connection with ourselves and our true emotions, rather than blaming external factors like parental figures or events. > Transcript: > Speaker 3 > We replace feeling with achievement, we replace feeling with hand washing, we replace feeling with all kinds of things. And that's why the etiology is important is what happened. It's not necessarily, you know, this parent did that or the other parent didn't do something else. As tracing where things inside went awry, where you missed a connection with yourself and what you really wanted felt were sad about, angry about, that's really what we're looking For rather than hanging it on some external world parental figure or some other institution or event. > Speaker 1 > I think that it is about kind of where it went awry, where we missed ourselves. ([Time 0:34:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/087cdc82-a1b8-4620-a57d-1bde58e0d24a)) > OCD as a cry of the psyche to be related to in a non-rational way > Summary: > OCD behaviors may seem irrational, but they represent a cry from the soul to be related to outside of rationality. These behaviors are a demand of the psyche to relate to the irrational or the non-rational, signifying a spiritual problem. > Transcript: > Speaker 1 > And that's such a good point, Joseph. And it's important, or I want to link it back to my thesis about this being kind of a spiritual problem. Because of course, one of the truths about OCD is that you're doing these crazy rituals. And rationally, you know it's nuts. You rationally know that the world is not going to end if you stop circling around your kitchen or whatever it is. You're checking doors. But it doesn't matter because it's not a rational problem. It is in some sense a cry from the soul to be related to outside of the rational framing of things. It is a sort of intrusion of the irrational. It's a demand of the psyche to relate to the irrational or the non rational. ([Time 0:41:07](https://share.snipd.com/snip/db9fc52b-9134-459d-bec2-f9abd54e9f47)) > “Nicianity” as a religion of stuffing down real feelings with false niceness > Summary: > In some southern communities, it's religiously prohibited to express anger or complaints, leading to a phenomenon called 'Nicianity' where people suppress real feelings with false niceness. This false niceness carries a sense of threat, leading to discord and perpetuating the problem by teaching children that being nice is the only acceptable form of expression. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > I've definitely seen this living down in the south, that it is even religiously prohibited for someone to be aggressive or to complain even or let alone to be angry so that the more angry One gets the more casseroles they distribute. The more angry they get the sweeter they try to become in general, but the sweetness has a certain kind of menace to it. You better come along so that it becomes kind of a religion, niciosity or nicianity becomes its own form of dangerous religion, because in the name of being nice, people can sometimes Create a kind of dis-cord, sometimes create an awful lot of discord around them, and also perpetuate the problem by telling their children that being nice is the only mode of expression That's permissible. ([Time 0:43:43](https://share.snipd.com/snip/93e405a8-67a8-4d2d-b1d1-71074a33a9d4)) > Internalising being nice > Summary: > Embedding the idea of being nice was instilled in a friend from the deep south during her childhood by her mother, which lingered on even after her marriage. This constant reminder had a profound effect on her, influencing how she presented herself to the world. > Transcript: > Speaker 2 > I once had a friend who's deceased now, but she was raised in the deep, deep south, and we had long conversations over the many years, and many times she referenced how every day when she Left for school, her mother would kind of get her all dressed up in the way that they would in that generation and look her square in the face and say, you be nice. Every single day of her childhood, and so it kind of became this ghost long after she had married and set up a lie from other who passed away, she was constantly at war with this edict of Having to present as nice. ([Time 0:44:47](https://share.snipd.com/snip/973c4959-7747-4e0e-87da-51d99258572f)) Note: My version of this is being told “Be good— often.